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Post by StagHunter on Apr 29, 2010 11:21:42 GMT -5
This proposal came in today from Ken Wignall. I have placed it here so that members can read and discuss it on the forum rather than carry on a potentially large discussion by global e-mail, which some might find confusing or intrusive. Proposal follows:
Ken Wignall here. I have been giving consideration to requests from members at the past few meetings for making club funds available for such 'positive' ideas as helping the needy in Hait and establishing small scholarship funds for upcoming auto mechanics and technicians, just as two examples. Everyone likes the idea but we are staying close to the vest with the $3-4000.00 balance that we have kept on hand. Our president rightfully sights that we need these funds as security for an insurance against potential losses from the annual show now being held in Ocean Grove and all members agree. The present success for this one large event of the year is here and everone pat themselves on the back, especially John K., our past chairman for the event, who stood up and took on the task 3 yrs ago when no one else spoke up and pretty much single handedly kept this event alive and made it now a PEDC annual tradition. Consider that we risk our bank account against monetary losses due to the improbable failure of any number of reasons, mother nature being at the top of the list, and the fact that this event approaches being maxed out with number of participants, be it 2 wheeled or 4. We also have several other smaller events thru the year that require additonal funding that a majority of members participate in and enjoy. Our 50/50 draws which help in bringing in revenue are on again, off again with State regulations changing daily. With these points in mind I would like to add to the agenda of our next meeting, Wed., May 5th, to discuss a proposal to increase our annual membships dues commencing 2011 from the present bargain basement price of $15.00/yearly for either individuals or couples, Pat and I both paying only $15.00 jointly, to an anuual fee of $25.00 for individuals and $35.00 for couples/families. Since we now have many couples and families joining with individual members to participate in all aspects of our club, it seems right and fair to all that we adjust our dues accordingly and bring ourselves up to a slightly higher annual fee. We all still wish to be a non-profit organization and this additional revenue is a step towards securing the additional funds that are necessary to be able to assist others in need, so that we may be able to discuss charitable donations and have the funds available to continue to run our current and future events and bring new ideas and faces next year and beyond without the concern of running short. Everyone will benefit and the good name of The Positive Earth Drivers Club will endure, be respected and spread further from our being able to reach out to others and we will all benefit.
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Post by John Sims on Apr 29, 2010 12:01:06 GMT -5
I have no problem with a dues increase to $25.00 or $35.00 for a family. Not a whole lot of money for the value receive. There is an old adage that the higher the cost of membership (within reason) the more perceived value that membership has.
As far as any contribution -- charity political scholarships, I would vote no. This is a social club not one that has to make a statement with money. Our statement to the public is made with our cars being visible.
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Post by raycarbone on Apr 30, 2010 23:19:23 GMT -5
As I see it, the PEDC is a car club and should be kept so. To increase dues for the purpose of promoting charitable contributions is not what the group was created for or what the members seem to want (per the last time this was brought up).
When it comes to charitable contributions, I select those I and my family wishes to support and see no need to be included or prompted to this purpose.
I would appose the increase of dues for this purpose and any funds designated for this purpose. This is a family club and the dues was established as a family sum to promote the inclusion of families. Also, I see no need for increasing dues based upon the fact we seem to be able to finance any and all of our present endeavors.
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Post by Ken Wignall on May 2, 2010 20:51:32 GMT -5
The proposal I make is not to raise funds to be able to donate to charities. I sited that as an example just as I did the request to support young mechanics and/or auto technicians with an essay contest with a subject matter on classic cars,and the winning author to be presented a small scholarship check. These are simply examples that our members discuss at our meetings that are 'funds' related. My point is to continue building a larger bank account and then we can encourage new ideas and communication, car related, discussing possibilities for good ideas and have the funds to fund new and existing events for all to enjoy. Many expenses arise thru the year. Dinner vouchers for retiring newsletter editors, gifts to retiring board members, floral arrangements for ill members, or a member that may have lost a loved one, house party funds to cushion the bill that the hosts pay out each time, insurances, newsletter expenses, the cost involved in putting on an annual car show which does involve the risk of taking losses, assiosting in funding the many smaller events that come along regularly, etc. etc. A very small increase in dues can help us build a larger bank account and give us the freedom to be able to creative in new ideas for events and ventures. We are limited by the size of our account and there is why I say we build a larger account. An idea was sent to me earlier about the PEDC possibly acquiring a reasonably priced classic and thru tech sessions and volunteering of time we raffle a car like this with all members participating and the club benefiting. That is creative thinking and a fine example of many projects we could even consider but we must having the funding to fuel the ideas. I am not opposed to an account target of say $10,000.00 and then we reduce dues if the majority were in agreement, but why limit ourselves and our actions by the size of a bank account. We have the lowest dues of any club or organization I am aware of and the minimal increase is within everyones budget. This can be a positive step forward for everyone in our car club and makes it affordable for even more events and car-related projects we can all share in.
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Post by raycarbone on May 3, 2010 7:59:50 GMT -5
I compliment Ken’s creativity in proposing that the PEDC expand beyond its charter as a non-profit social car club. However, that is what I joined and wish to stay part of. I believe there are many organizations that each member can choose from to promote and server the areas they choose to support without opening our organization to this purpose (not to mention the divineness usually found in a charity selection debate).
Additionally, when accepting responsibility, I believe no officer anticipated taking the added fiduciary responsibilities inherent in an organization collecting and donating large sums of club funds. Also, along with requiring changes in our basic charter and bylaws, charter, governmental requirements would impose additional complications and work on the club (officers and members) along with an expansion of overhead expenses in the form of professional legal and financial support.
Again, I appreciate and applaud Ken’s desire to expand the club’s focus, however, as one of the founders of the PEDC, I am proud and satisfied with the club remaining true to its initial perspectives and family orientation and should not be redirected toward other purposes. There are enough clubs and organizations to choose from that can satisfy anyone’s desire and calling.
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Post by Ken Wignall on May 3, 2010 10:43:38 GMT -5
Well spoken. I am not proposing going beyond the boundaries of being a non-profit organization. Our club would never vote to donate to charity. I don't think having a few extra dollars in the club account would require any changes to by-laws, nor our charter. Having a cushion of say $6 thousand rather than 3 in the bank is not going to insight a forensic audit from the tax man and imposing any additional complications to anyone. I don't think we will be running to the lawyers office and running up legal expenses simply because one is now paying $25 to be a member of a car club rather than $15. Every organization existing will be in line for scrutinizing if this were so. I think discussions of professional fees being paid could be an entirely new conversation and definitely is not one that would be prompted from the result of the size of a bank account. Why try to run an organization on a string? Legal and accounting fees arising from any unforseen source, other than the size of our savings, is another good reason to have the funds available, rather than resort to passing the hat or exhausting what we now have saved. Club perspective and family orientation are not being jeopardized nor even questioned and certainly not being redirected simply by a dollar. They are not for sale.
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Post by Tom Leavy on May 4, 2010 7:59:30 GMT -5
Great suggestion, Ken. I'd be only too happy to pay a little more than the bargain price of membership. It's still a bargain at your proposed prices. See you at the meeting tomorrow.
Regards, Tom
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Post by StagHunter on May 4, 2010 8:05:39 GMT -5
This proposal has evolved to the point where I'm not sure now what, exactly, is being proposed. At various times it looked like you proposed to eliminate the family membership, support charities with Club funds, and create a graduated dues structure among other things. Now it appears we're talking simply about raising funds for the sake of raising funds.
There are actually good reasons to keep the treasury low. A large treasury simply creates a bigger, juicier target for those who might want to pick it. What's the point of worrying about legal attacks from the outside? Any amount of money we could reasonably raise would be used up in a heartbeat in a court battle. And for what? What assets are we protecting, a couple of pop up tents, a bull horn and some nice red vests?
The whole point of incorporating was to protect our members individually from liability issues stemming from our activities as a club. If the Club gets sued, so what? So long as the member's and officer's personal assets are insulated from the club's liability. There's a well known principle in legal circles that you can't get blood from a stone. We have our insurance policy and this constitutes a good faith effort to protect ourselves. This is important for a Corporation like ours to show we made an effort to be responsible, but once that and the Club's other assets are gone, that's the end of it. We fold it and go create another one.
Right now, we have plenty of money in the treasury to meet all our reasonable needs. We'd rather not see much less, but we just don't need any more. In my view, we're right where we want to be.
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Post by Ken Wignall on May 4, 2010 9:31:45 GMT -5
Proposal- increase our annual dues from $15.00 for one or more persons, to $25.00 per individual and $35.00 for a family of 2 or more members.
Members are discussing different examples of recent motions that have arisen at monthly meetings. Charitable donations is a hot topic. Somewhat misconstrued that I am campaigning for PEDC to become a donor. I am simply pointing out ideas that members have brought up and may have been considered or not, but are not even discussable as we can't afford it. Recent conversation is that having more operating capital at hand will lead to unknown felons picking at it, government agencies would work on the club and cause us to seek legal and accounting counsel. It is pointed out that we are incorporated and have nothing to lose, corporatley nor individually, so no need to fear legal actions. My personal opinion is that it takes money to run any organization for whatever reason, be it a broken pa system to a bouquet of flowers for our aging membership, but I think it is better to have it to save it or spend it, than not have it. I think more operating capital is better than less and gives us more freedom to do, or not do, whatever.
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Post by John Sims on May 4, 2010 10:02:11 GMT -5
I have to agree with Wayne Simpson. I have been a member of PEDC for ten years and I can not recall an instance in which there was a critical need to raise additional funds. What we have in the treasury seems to be adequate for our needs. Any more, as Wayne points out, will lead to temptations by the membership to spend money for items not required to run what is a SOCIAL CLUB -- not a charity, not a bestower of scholarships but a group of guys and gals who like to drive their cars, show them and discuss the myriad problems in owling a LBC. As far as items that are tabled because they "are not even discussable as we can't affort it" as Ken puts it, perhaps that is good. If we can't afford it, we don't need to raise money for it or waste time discussing things that take us away from the founders intent of what the club should be, our charter and our bylaws.
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Post by raycarbone on May 4, 2010 10:13:47 GMT -5
OK Ken, now I am totally confused. In your previous comments you justified the increase of dues as a fund for external donations. Now you indicate the additional funds would ONLY be used to provide a just-in-case financial buffer for the club. Have you dropped your support for using this financial kitty as a source for charitable contributions? Or is this a tactic to first secure funds and then promote their use for your original proposals?
Over the years we have had little difficulty in meeting the financial objectives in support of club activities and events. Additionally, I believe the members have always been generous and open to additional assessment should we ever have a requirement to meet a specific financial deficit (as exemplified by some of the comments). I guess I am financial conservative as I see it naive to think that our Doubled or Tripled bank account would not become a target.
Expenses, like hot air, will expand to the extent of available space (funds). There is no argument that our dues are a bargain, however, it has been sufficient support the activities of the club. Again, I see no justification for increasing dues based the purpose you finally stated (as a financial buffer just in case).
By the way, the use of external professional legal and accounting expenditures (as mentioned in my previous post) would be required under your previous proposals to use dues and additionally generated funds for external donations (charitable contributions and scholarship funding). When making proposals you must be aware that there can be encumbering consequential issues that can be invoked by seemingly benign, or even seemingly beneficial, charter and club functional expansions.
Again, Ken, I wish to state that I appreciate and applaud your creativity but I don’t, in this case, support your proposal.
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Post by Ken Wignall on May 4, 2010 11:04:03 GMT -5
Thank you Ray. You vote 'no'. I want to re-iterate that I am not on a soapbx here for charitable donations. It is understood everyone has their charities. It was simply stated that someone had requested we send a few bucks to Haiti from the PEDC. That's it. I am not asking for charitable donations, or am I using this proposal as a guise to obtain funds to manipulate club funds for charitable causes. I have my own as do we all. I am not campaigning for 'club functional expansions'. I am not even asking that we buy beer. I could give lots of hypothetical ways to spend money and give examples of expenses and possible losses that could occur, or ideas fopr spending that would invoke havy discussion and agreement and disagreement, but that will take care of itself. Example- A club paid-for Holiday party. I don't care either way. But maybe there would be a member or two that could attend that otherwise has had some misfortune in a tough economy. That would be an expansion of a club function. How about all the events held at peoples homes that members gwenerously open their doors and pick up most of the tab for. Be nice if we could supplement them a few more bucks if we had it. Anyone done a projection on the possibilities of a profit, loss or break even on the annual show, rather than ask the question after the fact and the chairman says he'll get back to us after he gets the time to figure it out. Maybe a projection going in would be better. Seems like a larger show would justify at least the caution to look at the overall numbers and the possibility that it could fail or succeed. A larger show is a club functional expansion. Never hurts to have a few extra bucks to cover ourselves. I am voting for paying a few bucks more. Also we are two members paying the same price as an individual. Doesn't seem right. And please don't bring gender into it, just vote the way you want.
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Post by Ken Wignall on May 4, 2010 11:33:49 GMT -5
TODAYS SPECIAL- MEMBERSHIPS TWO FOR THE PRICE OF ONE! NO COUPONS REQUIRED!
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Post by Ken Wignall on May 4, 2010 12:06:28 GMT -5
John, I wouldn't want to make money available to members for 'temptaions' to spend the treasury. The Jag and Healey guys, OK, but not the MG guys. They are the ones that you gotta watch and next in line---- those Satanic British Bike owners. Now there's a suspicious lot. If there is no critical need for raising funds than possibly we should be doing away with selling hats, T shirts, wall clocks, Dash plaques, grille badges and wash off tattoos with our logo and not have to invest the club funds in inventory. Maybe we could have a sale on all items and sell off that inventory! You could save me having to spend about $60.00 a year on 50/50 tickets as well- less temptation, profits going to non-profits! Ten years ago with the number of members we had and the limited activity going on, maybe $3K was enough of a bank roll to suffice. It may be enough today. I hope so. I don't want to see the treasury run dry or just start up another club as a solution to it. Pete Richardson can't even get past Mexico with what we have now. Maybe that is good. Make him easier to be apprehended.
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Post by Ken WIgnall on May 4, 2010 13:01:50 GMT -5
Wayne. I will help to clarify for you what is being proposed. Raising your dues to $35.00. Yes it is graduated, $25.00 if you're a single guy or gal!. I know it sounds like madness. Thank you for pointing out one of the benefits of incorporated, in that we have nothing to lose and no one is at risk. Yep we're talking raising funds for the sake of raising funds. 50/50 for the sake of raising funds. Buying and selling Club Logo items for the sake of raising funds. If the treasury grows to a larger amount than it has stayed in the last 5 years, I will just have to consider us being fortunate. How about a club pension plan? Dare I say a healthcare plan? Nope. No political inuendo allowed, especially from the club Canadian. I disagree that $3000.00 is plenty of money. And as far as folding the club and starting another one- maybe we should see if 'Negative Earth' is taken. I can check to see if the webpage is still available, as an insurance. Enjoyed your gymkhana video. Could be something we could look into as a club event? Know where the club can get a good deal on pylons? We'll need to know the expenses.
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